Born A Sinner? Part 2
Posted By Lacy on November 15, 2008
Table of contents for Born A Sinner?
- Born A Sinner?
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I just barely skimmed the top with my last ‘Born A Sinner?‘ post, so I decided to write a part 2. If you haven’t read my first post on this subject, I suggest you do so before you read this one. ;) Let’s start off by analyzing Romans 3:23 in context; For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Before we just jerk that verse out to try to prove children are born sinners, we must understand that sin is a free choice. 1 John 3:4 plainly says that sin is the transgression of the law. Sin is a choice, a willful transgression of God’s law. Everybody still with me so far? 
Since we understand that sin is a choice, what this verse means is that all those who can sin have sinned. All those who are capable of sinning have sinned. All those who are able to transgress the law have done so. This is what the word all in this verse means.
Another commonly used Scripture verse taken out of context is Psalm 58:3; The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. …
Okay, before we use a verse to try to prove a point, we must always remember that we must not use it in a way that would contradict other parts of the Bible, and we must not use it in a way that would contradict reality. The Bible does NOT teach nonsense!!
If you’re going to use this verse in its literal sense, then you must believe that each and every baby is born speaking. For it has to be able to speak, before it can ever lie!
Because sin is a choice we cannot possibly be “born sinners,” or “guilty.” It cannot be both ways - either sin is a choice - or we are born that way. And since the Bible clearly explains that sin is a choice… we cannot be born sinners because God is a just God and it would be unjust if He created us sinners and then condemned us for the way He made us.
This false doctrine, along with total depravity, was developed and created by Augustine, ‘the father of the Catholic Church and the Protestant Reformation’. The early Christians and the Anabaptists both believed children were born innocent and pure. They believed what the Bible clearly taught, unlike Augustine, who created these heretical doctrines.
We also believed at one time that all babies were born sinners, and we were taught this in the churches we used to attend. It wasn’t until we began to study the Word of God on our own that He opened our eyes to this truth. You also have to notice that most churches and ungodly people today believe in the doctrine of being born a sinner. And you know that, if just about all the world believes it, and since they like to walk on the broad and easy road, that its got to be wrong.
I have often read that Adam’s sin is imputed to us, and that in Adam all have sinned. This is not Biblical doctrine! No one bears the iniquity of the father, nor of anyone who has sinned before our birth. [And that includes Adam] The Bible says in Ezekiel 18:19-20:
Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
[emphasis mine]
Bear with me here, I would like to respond to some of the comments that I did not approve on my other post, at least, some pieces of some comments.
Comment:
I don’t know how you can say that the belief of babies being born sinners is “anti-God, anti-Bible, anti-truth, and anti-common sense!” when there is scripture to support this belief. This really sounds like you are putting down other believers in Christ who believe differently than you.
There is no Scripture to support such a claim. There may be some if you try to pull it out of context, but not otherwise. I’m not ‘putting down other believers’. I am simply exposing a false doctrine, a tool of Satan, that is being used very effectively to draw others away from the truth of God’s Word.
Comment:
To the scripture in Ezekiel text you gave me, I never once stated that I inherited my father’s sin, i.e., if my father murders or steals, I will not go to hell for the things he has done. I will go to hell because of the curse we placed on ourselves THROUGH ADAM.
Whoa, wait a second here. The only curse passed down from Adam’s sin was death. You are correct, you never stated that you inherited your father’s sin. Rather you implied that you inherited Adam’s sin at birth, which again, is entirely un-Biblical.
Comment:
If you believe that all babies are born perfect and will automatically go to heaven until they commit a sin, you have the moral obligation to kill all babies. Because you cant just stand back and LET them go to hell. Because you KNOW they are going to sin ( because they have a sinful nature, which is exactly my point.)You would be a horrible person if you didn’t send them straight to heaven. And also (just following your logic, here) YOU would be God, because you would decide if someone went to [censored] or not. Which would absolve our Holy Savior from all his power, because we can save people, and we don’t need Him. Hmmmm… great philosophy.
So, according to this, you suggest that I have the moral obligation to disobey God’s law by murder? Ahem…wrong. We have the moral and Biblical obligation to train up a child in the way he should go, so he will know the difference between right and wrong.
Quote from “Are We Born Sinners?” by Brother Mike Miller:
This perverted doctrine denies the justice of God. It removes the responsibility for sin from the sinner, but worse than that, it places that responsibility on God himself. What blasphemy!
It is an outright lie because it teaches that sin is a substance passed through the genes, and particularly, the blood of our physical bodies. It makes sin a NATURAL thing and it certainly is NOT. God did not create man to sin, so it is completely UN-NATURAL.
This hellish idea makes God the author of sin. Only the devil himself is mean enough to come up with an idea like that and make it acceptable to men who claim to love and serve God.
As akhomeschoolfun said, I stirred up a lot of long-smoldering disagreement with this on my previous post, and I’m sure I’ve stirred up a lot more with this one. I am not attacking anyone, but I am attacking what I believe with all my heart to be a false doctrine.
What is at stake is too important! We must get it right! “Make straight the way of the Lord!” We just can’t be slothful and careless with the souls of men, so please read and consider this challenge to what has become the foundation of modern Christianity. - Mike Miller (Read Entire Article)
Children are born into a sinful world, but they are absolutely not born sinners! Sin is a moral issue — a matter of the heart — the result of a choice.
“For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil”
and
“sin is not imputed when there is no law”
I simply don’t see how it could get any clearer than that..
I said it once, and I’ll say it again……
This is anti-God, anti-Bible, anti-truth, and anti-common sense!
Comments
20 Responses
Saturday, 15. November 2008
I am so glad to read this…I read your last post on this issue also. I wholeheartedly believe that babies are born innocent. Can you imagine telling a mother her (for example) SIDS baby was going to hell? Of course not!, Because people don’t believe that in their souls. I think that people need to read their scriptures a whole lot better…….no offense.
Sunday, 16. November 2008
Of course, you are right that sin is a choice, and babies cannot choose to sin. They are, however, born with a sin-nature, which is why they inevitably grow up to become sinners. “For as by one man’s [Adam's] disobedience many were made sinners,” (and I would be remiss to not finish the verse) “so by the obedience of One [Jesus Christ] shall many be made righteous.” Hallelujah!
Monday, 17. November 2008
@ Tammy:
If you believe children are born with a “sin-nature”, then you must also believe that this “sin-nature” was inherited by Christ, since he was indeed a man. Instead, I believe you mean that children are born with a choice to do either right or wrong.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Romans 5:12)
Notice, that by the willful transgression of the law, sin, death was passed upon all men. This is the curse of mankind.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
(Romans 5:14)
Here we see, that the curse (death) is still applied to those that had not sinned, from Adam to Moses. If we were born with a “sin-nature” it would be impossible for a person not to sin. But as we clearly see, there are those that “had not sinned after the similitude of Adam”.
So, to conclude, sin is a willful transgression of the law of God. To simply say that children are born with a “sin-nature” is the same as to say that they will sin, and are basically born sinners. Instead, children are born with a choice, “neither having done any good or evil.”
Monday, 17. November 2008
I’m glad we can agree that sin is a moral choice that we have to make, not that happens as soon as we’re out of the womb. I should write a post on why people like us Anglicans baptise infants, even though we don’t believe in original sin, but I have yet to find the time. It has to do with the fact that salvation is within the community.
Amber Lee’s last blog post..Jeremy Frye
Monday, 17. November 2008
> It has to do with the fact that salvation is within the community.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(John 14:6)
Salvation is through Christ, not the community.
Monday, 17. November 2008
Levi, the sin-nature is passed down through Adam, the father. The scriptures are clear on that. Had Joseph been Jesus’ father, then he would have been born with the sin-nature. But His Father is the Heavenly Father, while his human body came from Mary.
I do not think there is a disagreement here. Man is born with a sin-nature, but without any sin imputed upon him until he commits sin by his own choice.
Monday, 17. November 2008
The Bible teaches very, very plainly that Jesus was, in all respects, a man. He lived and died just like other men live and die. Just as we are partakers of flesh and blood, “he also himself likewise took part OF THE SAME.” He was IN ALL THINGS …made like unto his brethren.”
Now, either Jesus was born with a sin-nature, just like we are – or we ARE NOT born with a sin-nature. He was made like us in all things!
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 2 John 1:7
Monday, 17. November 2008
> Levi, the sin-nature is passed down through Adam, the father.
> The scriptures are clear on that.
Please provide reference.
Levi’s last blog post..My Sister has moved…
Wednesday, 19. November 2008
i guess then I’m just confused as to when you believe your sins will send you to hell then. You can’t tell me you seem to think that (for example) a 6 year old who dies with sins attached doesn’t go to hell, but a 7 year old does. If a 20 year old can go to hell then does that mean a 19 year old, or 18 year old all the way down to birth. [......]
Thursday, 20. November 2008
Hello Rachel,
When someone begins to understand God’s law (what is sin and what is not) and have the knowledge of good and evil and willfully commit an act they know to be wrong (sin) and do not repent of it and forsake it, they would go to hell.
If a child doesn’t have the knowledge of the law, then “sin is not imputed where there is no law”, it’s as simple as that.
Thank you for taking the time to comment on this discussion! I appreciate it.
~ Lacy
Friday, 21. November 2008
Lacy, your brother asked for the reference that says that a sin-nature is passed down through the man. We have seen passages from Romans 5 several times here, and that is the very passage I reference. “Wherefore, as by ONE MAN sin entered into the world….Therefore as by the offence of ONE judgment came upon all men to condemnation….For as by ONE MAN’S disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
It is quite clear to me that by Adam’s disobedience many were made sinners, not because their father’s sins are imputed upon them, but because they inherit in their father’s blood the propensity to sin, passed down from father Adam. All tend to, and eventually do, sin, and that is why “There is none righteous, NO NOT ONE.” “For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.”
One Man was born whose blood was perfect, pure, holy, and the only acceptable sacrifice in God’s eyes. The Man Christ Jesus.
BTW regarding your quote, Lacy:
“If a child doesn’t have the knowledge of the law, then “sin is not imputed where there is no law”, it’s as simple as that.”
I couldn’t agree more.
Tammy’s last blog post..The tradition of Giving Thanks
Friday, 21. November 2008
There is no such a thing as a sin nature mentioned anywhere in the Bible, sin is not passed down through the blood, the Scriptures are very clear on that because sin is a choice — you can’t have it both ways. The doctrine of original sin is such a deception!
The Bible plainly says man is tempted and drawn away of “his own lust”, not a sinful nature or bad blood. [James 1:14-16] The cause of sin is not from a sinful nature, but yielding to the lusts of the flesh.
There is no possible way it can be in the blood, and there is not a shred of evidence to support that lie in the Bible. Just like Eve was tempted, and yielded to the temptation and sinned. She certainly didn’t have a ’sin nature’ and had regular blood just like everyone else, yet she sinned!
The Bible is clear that sin is something that happens AFTER we are born (willfully yielding to the lusts of the flesh), not something in our blood or physical makeup. No where in the Scriptures does it say sin is passed down through the blood, or sin is inherited, but it does say that man corrupts himself (again, by yielding to the lusts of the flesh)!
Where did Adam get his propensity to sin? From God, his creator? No, for there is no such thing as sin (or propensity to sin) being passed through the blood. Adam chose to sin, for sin is a willfull transgression of the law! (Even Lucifer sinned in heaven, and he didn’t have blood… he was a spirit!)
~ Lacy
Saturday, 22. November 2008
You said: “There is no such a thing as a sin nature mentioned anywhere in the Bible”
You are right, in that the words “sin nature” do not appear. Those are just words we use to describe a Bible truth. We also use the word “Trinity” to describe the Triune God, and “rapture” when referring to the time when we will be “caught up with [Jesus] in the clouds”. These words are also not found in the Bible, yet we use them to express truths from the Bible.
You said: “sin is not passed down through the blood”
I never said that sin is passed down through the blood. In fact, I was careful to make the distinction that a *propensity* to sin, and not sin itself, is passed down from Adam. I quote again from Romans 5:19 “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
If not by an inherited sin-nature, how else could many be made sinners by one man’s disobedience? Either they were “made sinners” by inheriting Adam’s SIN (which contradicts scripture), or by inheriting a tendency to sin because of his fall.
…AND if the sin-nature does not exist, why has never a mortal man lived who did not sin? Do you know any person of age who is without sin? And if one could live all of their life without committing sin by choice, would they then gain eternal life by their own merit? “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” I John 1:8
Don’t get me wrong - I do not believe that this is any excuse for sin. Nor do I believe sin is irresistible to those who are in Christ. (I Cor 10:13)
Sunday, 23. November 2008
If the ’sin nature’ is a natural inclination to sin (definition of propensity), then it makes sin a NATURAL thing, which it certainly is not. God did not create man to sin, so it is completely UN-NATURAL. The doctrine of a ’sin nature’ makes God the author of sin. If you are born with a natural inclination to sin, then it is of God’s doing because HE is your CREATOR.
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. [Romans 5:19]
The way I understand this verse is in this manner, because we must still keep in mind that sin is a choice:
By one man’s disobedience [sin entered the world] and many were made sinners [because they chose to sin].
If you’re going to use the first part of that verse to conclude that we inherit a natural inclination to sin, then you also have to use the second part of the verse and conclude that by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous and inherit the propensity to do righteousness.
You said, “If not by an inherited sin-nature, how else could many be made sinners by one man’s disobedience?”
They were made sinners because they chose to commit a willful act of sin and transgressed the law.
You said, “And if one could live all of their life without committing sin by choice, would they then gain eternal life by their own merit? “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” I John 1:8″
Again, Romans 3:23 in context: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
All those who can sinned, have sinned. Man will eventually choose to sin. Not because they inherit the natural inclination [and again, sin is NOT a natural thing, and the doctrine of 'sin nature' makes sin a natural thing] to sin, but because they are tempted and drawn away of their own lust, and enticed. [James 1:14-16]
~ Lacy
Wednesday, 26. November 2008
Then what does Adam’s choice to sin have to do with the rest of mankind choosing to sin ever since? The Bible makes the connection, not me.
Wednesday, 26. November 2008
“sin is NOT a natural thing,”
The Scriptures disagree. It is very natural for a son of Adam to sin. After regeneration, however, it is contrary to the new godly nature to sin.
“47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.” (I Cor 15)
Once we have received Christ as our Saviour, we bear His image. The old man is passed away, and all things become new. We are THEN no longer slaves to sin! Praise the LORD.
Have you ever been born again, Lacy?
Tuesday, 2. December 2008
Adam’s choice to sin brought sin into the world, and now we have the knowledge and influence of sin around us.
Could you please provide the Scriptures that say it is natural to sin? Because if it is natural, then God created us with it. (which would contradict other parts of the Bible, because God is not the author of sin!)
Adam, Eve, and Lucifer… none of them had any kind of a ‘natural inclination’ to sin, yet they sinned. Eve was tempted, drawn away of her own lust, likewise was Adam. Eve had a natural desire for knowledge, and that was not sinful. The serpent used that desire and pointed her at something that was forbidden. With a little lie, and a little encouragement and influence from evil, she let her desire control her in spite of God’s commandment.
You asked, “Have you ever been born again, Lacy?”
Yes, indeed I have. I have repented of the sins I had willfully committed, and now desire to live my life as it pleases God, not myself.
Tuesday, 9. December 2008
Hi Levi and Lacy, I thank God for the two of you defending His truth about sin! Good job! I believed in the ’sin-nature’ doctrine until about a week ago. I got a big smile on my face when I saw the two of you defending the truth here. It is a blessing. Keep up the good work. - Benjamin
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you PRESENT YOURSELVES as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or obedience to righteousness?
Tuesday, 9. December 2008
“anti-God, anti-Bible, anti-truth, and anti-common sense!”
You forgot Anti-Christ (Heb 4:15, 1John 4:2-3)
Sunday, 4. January 2009
The Bible teaches that life is in the blood.
For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of ALL flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.
(Leviticus 17:14)
It does NOT say that blood carries moral choices to sin or not to sin… only life!
Babies do not inherit their father’s blood, they make their own.
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00338.htm
The Bible says,
“(As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)” (Luke 2:23)
We all know that sinners are NOT HOLY.
“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:5)
It is God that creates every living human being. We are His offspring, created holy, innocent and without sin. Praise be to God for such precious gifts that He gives to us. It is our duty to train them up to serve Him, for one day each person will be drawn away and enticed by their own lusts, they will sin, then they will die spiritually and be lost for ever unless they repent and turn to Christ.
“And have put on the new man, which is RENEWED in knowledge after the image of him that created him:” (Colossians 3:10)
Renewed: made new, renovate, freshness
It seems that you have to be “new” once in order to be “RENEWED”!
Excellent post, Lacy!